mills

My name is Mills Baker; I write about love, culture, art, religion, mental illness, philosophy, memory, politics and the rather random.

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Does Truth Exist Apart from Human Language?

“A mathematical truth is timeless; it does not come into being when we discover it. Yet its discovery is a very real event…”

With this Schrödinger notes a Platonic problem: mathematical truths exist apart from us. That is, for example, before humans existed it was still true that “the square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares on the other two sides,” as the Pythagorean theorem states.

This would remain “true” even if the Earth were smashed into rocky mist by an asteroid or humanity annihilated by its own weaponry. It would be true were life never formed: triangular shapes would conform to it. Its truth as a descriptive theorem is not dependent on our minds, we would say.

Yet in the famous words of Richard Rorty:

“Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there. The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not. Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.”

Truth cannot exist without sentences, as truth is a word. It has certain unusual qualities (transitive qualities, symmetry, etc.), but that we call those elements of its syntax ‘mathematical’ or ‘logical’ doesn’t mean they’re not of human (and linguistic) origin. So it would seem that mathematical knowledge is merely a sort of description, right? It is a highly reliable and repeatable description that abstracts forms of the natural world to make them more universal, better for operations, but it remains descriptive. “Two” describes things; “parallel” describes things; “true” describes things.

But Will mentioned circles -perfect circles- and their relationship to the universe. Such circles do not exist: they cannot be said to be descriptive, then; yet laws involving circles are everywhere in effect in our universe. The explanation of such laws by mathematicians has the quality of discovery: we found them! Yet it seems rather that we’ve created them! Yet they exist without us, at least inasmuch as the universe operates according to the principles they establish!

Is this a contradiction? Can you resolve it (in 140 characters)? Are mathematical laws human descriptions or qualities of the universe?

Notes
  1. shrinshee reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  2. cataclysmicshenanigans reblogged this from pourquoi-pas
  3. bloomradio reblogged this from yumwatch
  4. mumblelard answered: whiskey.
  5. noosphere answered: i would simply say mathematical truths are a part of us, govern our very breath as well as allow us to govern our thoughts. hardwired beauty~
  6. hipsterdiet answered: truth might be the one law that exists independent of all else.
  7. sydvish answered: I’m going qualities of the universe, but I am under-qualified. I think you should use the question feature for your hypotheticals instead.
  8. shadowfirebird answered: The concept of a perfect circle exists. You’re describing language describing concepts, not actual things.
  9. mizosoup reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  10. emily-verloren answered: Human description,because these is no comparison between human’s 1-10 numbers to other forms quantity expression….
  11. garynadeaunow answered: Truth exists. Lies do not.
  12. missworld reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  13. gregbrown answered: Truth seems to require both a test and a tested entity, and I don’t know any way to test outside of language. This gives me a truth-ache. :(
  14. walpaper answered: Of course they are human descriptions. It’s not even a question.
  15. talix18 answered: Can it be that we are the only creatures that experience the universe as we do, thus the mathematical truths are only true for us?
  16. tristn answered: According to Godel’s 2nd inconsistency theorem, truth transcends provability in any formal system. Some describable truths cannot be proven.
  17. eush answered: We filter everything through human descriptions; we may have gotten some universal qualities, but our perception filters distort it somewhat.
  18. barthel answered: There is no “out there,” only my own perception, so something is true if it accurately predicts how I perceive something to behave.
  19. bloomradio reblogged this from yumwatch
  20. luap answered: Qualities of the universe. They exist outside of us, but we use human created methods to further understand and express them.
  21. benjaminhilts reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  22. langer answered: Ptolemy found, with the “equant” of Venus, that perfect circles become quite cumbersome in describing planetary motion, but I need > 140chars
  23. bmichael answered: Kant would say such a question is unanswerable and Wittgenstein that it’s ill-formed, which is the same. I agree with them.
  24. bmichael reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  25. mildlyannoyedrabbit answered: I don’t have an answer…but what the hell?! This is so cool!
  26. benjaminhilts answered: truth and mathematics r both human constructs created to classify and categorize what we encounter. Same as religion.
  27. ragbag answered: sadly, i can only resolve this for you in 141 characters.
  28. boutofcontext answered: 2+2=4
  29. pourquoi-pas reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  30. yumwatch reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  31. sylviac answered: Wittgenstein. Also, language is embodied as a biological function.
  32. jorgeadot answered: No. Yes.
  33. markley reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  34. paulgiacherio answered: Nonsensical. The only way to understand qualities of the universe is through human description
  35. nudawn reblogged this from mills and added:
    Mills makes my brain hurt. FUCK YOU...then think about
  36. nudawn answered: math = language we use to define the qualities of the universe, which exist w/out our definition of them. our truth does not. i need to poop.
  37. ekstasis answered: Truth isn’t a “description” of reality, but a “value” possessed by objects within it, an attribute of objects like triangles and propositions
  38. tobateksingh reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  39. melanyouth reblogged this from mills and added:
    “Truth cannot be out there—cannot exist independently of the human mind—because sentences cannot so exist, or be out...
  40. seanbest answered: I think this question is too easy. In fact, it answers itself. Clue: We have never been modern.
  41. tsparks answered: True & false are human constructs, mathematics is as well. These are ways we deal with our surroundings, tools to help us understand
  42. danielholter answered: What does the Bible say? :)
  43. aaronwhite answered: Human descriptions. Without us to observe the universe operating in such a way, we’re relying on the prediction of our human models.
  44. littleorphanammo answered: five tons of flax. Also laughing.
  45. krankmills answered: Qualities of the universe. The math is universal. The way we communicate said math is human, of course, as we can’t communicate any other way
  46. squashed answered: Yes. But the pythagorean theorem only holds in Euclidean geometry, which is a human creation. Sorry. I have no words left to answer further.
  47. mills posted this